Are my clutch tube welds broken? Help!

bradreedthompson · Post by **bradreedthompson** » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:26 pm

Thanks in advance for any insight...

Bug has been shifting great then, all of a sudden, clutch felt much stiffer and started to shudder when going into gear. Also seems like the clutch disengages really high on the pedal. I pulled the cable--it was fine. I pulled on the bowden tube and it pretty much slipped right off in my hands. I reinstalled it with some washers to give it a good amount of bend (maybe too much?). The clutch is still doing the same thing, though. I can drive it, but it shudders like crazy and regardless of where I adjust the cable the pedal feels stiff and disengages at the top of the pedal. I've checked the back clutch tube weld (under the plate under the back seat) and all looks good. There's no clunking noise or anything like the other welds are broken, but I just can't figure it out. Anyone been there, done that? Could it be anything besides broken welds? I really don't want to cut into the tunnel, and don't have the tools or money to make it happen right now anyway. We're moving in a few weeks and this lil' 66 has to make the trip!

Thanks all,

Brad in Oregon

darzoom · Post by **darzoom** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:11 am

It happened to me and I had to cut the tunnel to weld the tube back just below the shifter. The tube in the tunnel has a curve in it and when the center weld breaks, and you push the clutch in, the tube goes straight shich basically makes the cable longer and the clutch will not work properly.

Sorry to say, you will need to cut into the tunnel to correct the issue or live with it until you have the time/money. Good luck on your trip with the current condition of your vehicle.

bradreedthompson · Post by **bradreedthompson** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:23 am

Thanks, darzoom. I think I'm going to drill a few small holes in the tunnel this afternoon to see if I can confirm that's what's going on before I make any serious cuts. I'm surprised that there could be that much bend in the tube!

darzoom · Post by **darzoom** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:29 pm

I too was suprised that it would flex so much. There are cut off wheels that are cheap ($19) at the big box stores and would help greatly in your work. Here are a couple of images to help know where to cut.

bradreedthompson · Post by **bradreedthompson** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:04 pm

Thanks for the great info. I just drilled a couple of inspection holes and the middle weld appears solid. Would a break in just the front weld cause similar issues? In other words, does the tube flex that much up front, too? I hate to drill more holes... especially in my apartment complex parking lot... but I guess I gotta do what I gotta do!

bradreedthompson · Post by **bradreedthompson** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:55 pm

Well, I drilled inspection holes at the front and the weld is good there, too. I'm at a loss. It's not the cable or the clutch tube welds. What else might cause such a sudden partial failure of the system? Any ideas?

h~moto · Post by **h~moto** » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:10 pm

I would suspect the clutch pressure plate. One of the three release levers on the clutch may have become off kilter - not seated properly in its position.

Keep in mind that it is not impossible to drive a Beetle without a clutch. It is explained in the Muir "Compleat Idiot" book. I don't know how far your move is or what type of driving is involved.

darzoom · Post by **darzoom** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:08 am

There are many things it could be. In your description made it appear to be the clutch tube. Good thing your ruled that out.

Another thing that causes shudder is movement of the engine and trans. When they move, the results in the effective length of the clutch cable changing. So, when you release the clutch and it engages, the engine and trans move, it loosens or tightens the clutch cable and you get a cycling, hop or shudder. This can be caused by broken or worn transmission mounts or flexing in the frame horns. Check the mounts and see if they are oil soaked which causes failure. To fix frame horn flex look at a Kaffer/Truss bar to help stop the frame flexing.

Another possibility is a worn or broken Bowden tube. The tube is designed to keep tension on the cable. If worn or broken, the tension is released and the tube goes straight when the clutch is engaged. When the clutch is released it starts the shudder. The tube allows for slight movement of the engine and trans and prevents the shudder. Though the Bowden tube looks okay, it may have a break in the windings inside or be worn through on the inside. If you can reach up and pull on it and it easily moves, I would take it out and inspect for being worn out. They are less than $15 and can easily be replaced without removing the engine as long as you are flexible and can raise the car high enough to do so. Also, a car with solid mounts doesn't need a Bowden, because the engine/trans are not moving. If they are, the frame horns are flexing and a Kaffer/Truss bar would be needed to stop the flexing.

To check the mounts and frame horn flex, park on level ground, shut off the engine, put it in reverse, release the emergency brake, get in the back of the vehicle and push the vehicle forward and back against the engine compression/braking. Look at how much movement there is in the engine and trans up and down at the exhaust tips. If it seems like a normal amount (exhaust tips should not move more than ¾ to 1.5 inches nor should they hit the body) check Bowden tube. If it is okay, I agree you need to look at the clutch as the issue.

If you have been having a real seal leak (oil under the car between the engine and trans) the clutch plate itself could be soaked with oil. If so, when the clutch is engaged it starts to slip and catch and may start the shudder due to movement as talked about above. To replace the clutch requires removing the engine and is an entirely different discussion.

I hope this is helpful. Good Luck.

bradreedthompson · Post by **bradreedthompson** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:11 pm

Thanks SO MUCH for the great insights into my troubles. I've certainly driven a bug (my ol' '72) without a clutch, so I think I could nurse this bug where it needs to be. It's about an hour away but mostly highway.

I'll try the engine mount test a little later today and, after that, take a closer look at that bowden tube. I had no idea they could fail while still looking okay from the outside. I have a feeling I'm headed toward dropping the engine, though. Something about the way it went from fine one minute to terrible the next makes me think it's something broken in the clutch itself.

- Brad in Oregon

Bug-Eyed · Post by **Bug-Eyed** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:42 pm

I think my '66 Sedan has something like this going on as well.

Digger89L · Post by **Digger89L** » Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:56 pm

Could a similar issue cause the transmission to pop out of 2nd gear ...or is that something entirely unrelated to bowden tubes, etc???

darzoom · Post by **darzoom** » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:46 am

Popping out of 2nd is not usually related to bowden tube.

Before lamenting on a rebuilt transaxle, check for worn shifter coupling bushings. You would know they are worn if you have a lot of shifter slop.

Also, the support bushing in the tunnel just behind the shifter could also cause issues of not going all the way into gear. Check these first.

Another issue could be a worn transavle nosecone bushing. When looking at the coupler bushings see if the shift shaft out of the trans has any slop. If it does, it could also cause the problem.

Finally, this usually happens due to worn shifter forks not allowing the gear to fully unguage or worn 2nd gear. Let's hope it is just bushings.

Good Luck!

Blue Baron · Post by **Blue Baron** » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:00 pm

The shift coupler is really only an issue if it pops out of gear when you hit a bump. If it pops out under power or under deceleration, the transmission is usually kaputt.

In my experience lack of clutch cable preload at the bowden tube is the most common cause of clutch judder.

The bowden tube should have a good 1 1/2 to 2 inches of sag, and more sag can be added by putting washers between the tube and the eye on the transmission side cover the tube passes through.

And as was mentioned, the transmission mounts should also be checked for damage or loose bolts.

h~moto wrote:Keep in mind that it is not impossible to drive a Beetle without a clutch. It is explained in the Muir "Compleat Idiot" book. I don't know how far your move is or what type of driving is involved.

You could drive cross country if you wanted. Simply start the engine in first gear and match revs when you shift. When you have to stop, shut the engine off. Spend some time doing this and it will motivate you to fix the problem!

darzoom wrote:If you have been having a real seal leak (oil under the car between the engine and trans) the clutch plate itself could be soaked with oil.

This is a minor point (which is why I saved it for last), but I call it the front main seal (flywheel end), because it's toward the front of the car. Saying the front of the engine faces the rear can get a little confusing.

darzoom · Post by **darzoom** » Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:23 pm

is it fixed and what was it?

KKV270 · Post by **KKV270** » Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:01 pm

Can't believe it. Soon after I was done with previous disturbing issues, now I'm faced with this very shudder problem.

I experienced it soon after I loaded the car to full capacity (5 adults)... nothing out of the normal such as sudden clutch release but I very often load my engine to help in braking it. What might be my cause of shudder?

Also to mention, I have a "spongy" clutch...but doesnt slip at all....only feels funny...like it had a spring to it on the pedle. Is it a wearing out clutch, loose cable??

The bowden tube looks good (though from the post above, it goes beyond waht we see!!!).
Pressure plate and clutch look good....as well.

Kindly help me