removing engine
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brentsmith
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- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
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brentsmith
- Senior Member
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 am
- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
Rebuild
Well, selling the spare engine to finance the interior restore won't be happening. I'll be using the spare to rebuild the engine.
Apparently there was a rod that was thrown or out of place, and piston number 4 was not firing (or doing anything else it was supposed to do. I didn't even go into that part of the engine, as I only replaced the pushrod tubes and didn't go any further. When I got the car back on the road, I could only get between 30 and 35 mph. I tested all sorts of theories, from old gas (even though it had only been sitting for two months) to a bad fuel pump. Turns out I was only firing on 3 cylinders.
My wife was following in the car we've borrowed and ended up towing me into town. With the car out of gear (I made sure it was in neutral), the car began to make a horrible racket. I started flashing my headlights like a madman, but it was a while before she saw me. By the time we got stopped, there was smoke coming out of the fan shroud and the exhaust pipes. We let it cool for several minutes and tried it again. This time we got into town with no trouble.
At this point, I was thinking that the transmission was at fault for the low mpg, and asked at the shop how much a tranny would be. When he told me that a rebuilt one would run me $500.00, I told him I'd have to weigh my options. I tried starting the car. It turned over, but sounded like a machine gun.
On discovering that the lady who had given me her dad's old engine had also given me the tranny and all that went "below the surface" of the car, I decided to get the Beetle back home any way I could. I got some Slick 50 and some engine protector and restorer and did an oil change right there on the shop's parking lot. There was a good bit of oil on the outside of the engine, and I suspect it's still coming from the oil cooler. I used one of the tiny washers that came with the oil cooler seals (I dropped the other two while installing the cooler - you can guess which ones), and the nut never really tightened. It just kept turning on the washer.
I got the engine to turn over and run, but it only ran for a few minutes before what I knew would happen happened - BANG! Then nothing. My wife towed me home with no difficulty. I sat in that car with no heat that was being towed by a rope and looked around at the car's disgusting interior, and all I could think was, "Man, I love this car."
So we get home and a friend and I went to look at the engine that I've been given. We're not even sure at the time of this posting if the engine is going to turn over. It's been sitting outside on the ground beneath this lady's dad's old project car for around 10 years, and was in storage in a garage for 20 years prior to that. These project cars back 30 years ago used either a new or rebuilt engine, but this one's got dirt all over it and I think the wheel is rusted in place.
Anyway, our goal is to get the engine back to my shop, completely take both of them apart, and use the best of both engines to totally rebuild an engine. There is a crack in the case of the engine that was in my car where piston 4 bit the dust, so we'll be using the case for the other motor, which is also an "H" case.
I've already ordered the seal and gasket set for the rebuild, but am not sure exactly where to get the rings. Any suggestions? I went ahead and ordered the bell housing seal, and will work toward getting the seal around the engine compartment installed while the engine is out. I really want to get this rebuilt engine in, and never take it out again (we'll see how that goes).
Can't wait to see the results of this! Pretty sure that the car is going to run even better than I ever thought!
Apparently there was a rod that was thrown or out of place, and piston number 4 was not firing (or doing anything else it was supposed to do. I didn't even go into that part of the engine, as I only replaced the pushrod tubes and didn't go any further. When I got the car back on the road, I could only get between 30 and 35 mph. I tested all sorts of theories, from old gas (even though it had only been sitting for two months) to a bad fuel pump. Turns out I was only firing on 3 cylinders.
My wife was following in the car we've borrowed and ended up towing me into town. With the car out of gear (I made sure it was in neutral), the car began to make a horrible racket. I started flashing my headlights like a madman, but it was a while before she saw me. By the time we got stopped, there was smoke coming out of the fan shroud and the exhaust pipes. We let it cool for several minutes and tried it again. This time we got into town with no trouble.
At this point, I was thinking that the transmission was at fault for the low mpg, and asked at the shop how much a tranny would be. When he told me that a rebuilt one would run me $500.00, I told him I'd have to weigh my options. I tried starting the car. It turned over, but sounded like a machine gun.
On discovering that the lady who had given me her dad's old engine had also given me the tranny and all that went "below the surface" of the car, I decided to get the Beetle back home any way I could. I got some Slick 50 and some engine protector and restorer and did an oil change right there on the shop's parking lot. There was a good bit of oil on the outside of the engine, and I suspect it's still coming from the oil cooler. I used one of the tiny washers that came with the oil cooler seals (I dropped the other two while installing the cooler - you can guess which ones), and the nut never really tightened. It just kept turning on the washer.
I got the engine to turn over and run, but it only ran for a few minutes before what I knew would happen happened - BANG! Then nothing. My wife towed me home with no difficulty. I sat in that car with no heat that was being towed by a rope and looked around at the car's disgusting interior, and all I could think was, "Man, I love this car."
So we get home and a friend and I went to look at the engine that I've been given. We're not even sure at the time of this posting if the engine is going to turn over. It's been sitting outside on the ground beneath this lady's dad's old project car for around 10 years, and was in storage in a garage for 20 years prior to that. These project cars back 30 years ago used either a new or rebuilt engine, but this one's got dirt all over it and I think the wheel is rusted in place.
Anyway, our goal is to get the engine back to my shop, completely take both of them apart, and use the best of both engines to totally rebuild an engine. There is a crack in the case of the engine that was in my car where piston 4 bit the dust, so we'll be using the case for the other motor, which is also an "H" case.
I've already ordered the seal and gasket set for the rebuild, but am not sure exactly where to get the rings. Any suggestions? I went ahead and ordered the bell housing seal, and will work toward getting the seal around the engine compartment installed while the engine is out. I really want to get this rebuilt engine in, and never take it out again (we'll see how that goes).
Can't wait to see the results of this! Pretty sure that the car is going to run even better than I ever thought!
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brentsmith
- Senior Member
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- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
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fatalifeaten
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- Location: The 480
Ok, hopefully this goes without saying, but you're entering completely new territory at this point. Once you split the case, you're in it to win it. This "project" engine's been sitting for 10 + years, conservatively. Take it to a machine shop and have them measure it to be sure it's even a usable case. No point in continuing to throw money away if you have parts that aren't worth saving. Take the crank with you too. have them measure it as well and get you the right main and rod bearings for it. This is absolutely critical to the longevity of your rebuild. Incorrectly sized bearings will fail, period. When they do, you're done, again. It may prove easier to have them assemble your crank, bearings, and cam/timing gear set for you. That way you don't have to fight with them when you begin assembly.
If you've dropped a rod, the odds are high that it's toast and should not be used again until it has been inspected and rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing. Even if it "looks ok", it failed once, can you afford to risk it failing again? Don't put any parts back in that are in any way suspect. Replace them with new, quality parts. I know this may mean adding down time while you wait for replacements or save up for more new parts, but it's the old adage of "Buy quality once, cry once. buy Cheap, cry every time they fail", and I can promise you that the long term loss will far outweigh the time and cost of doing it right the first time. Ultimately you will have to decide what you're willing to reuse and what you'd rather completely replace with new, but make sure you make each of those decisions after thoroughly weighing the options.
I'd recommend picking up the Bentley Shop manual and also the Muir "idiot book". Between these 2 books you will have all the knowledge you need to tackle a rebuild. In fact, either of them will get you there 100%. It's nice to have both on hand though, the bentley tends to be dry but have all the useful tech info, where the muir book explains it in layman's terms better, but can gloss over things muir didn't consider as critical.
Take your time, don't be afraid to spend some dough to do it right the first time and above all, Don't panic! Working on these engines is a little complex at first, but it is far from impossible to do. Just go slow and make sure you don't do anything without test fittings, dry runs, etc. and you should be successful.
If you've dropped a rod, the odds are high that it's toast and should not be used again until it has been inspected and rebuilt by someone who knows what they're doing. Even if it "looks ok", it failed once, can you afford to risk it failing again? Don't put any parts back in that are in any way suspect. Replace them with new, quality parts. I know this may mean adding down time while you wait for replacements or save up for more new parts, but it's the old adage of "Buy quality once, cry once. buy Cheap, cry every time they fail", and I can promise you that the long term loss will far outweigh the time and cost of doing it right the first time. Ultimately you will have to decide what you're willing to reuse and what you'd rather completely replace with new, but make sure you make each of those decisions after thoroughly weighing the options.
I'd recommend picking up the Bentley Shop manual and also the Muir "idiot book". Between these 2 books you will have all the knowledge you need to tackle a rebuild. In fact, either of them will get you there 100%. It's nice to have both on hand though, the bentley tends to be dry but have all the useful tech info, where the muir book explains it in layman's terms better, but can gloss over things muir didn't consider as critical.
Take your time, don't be afraid to spend some dough to do it right the first time and above all, Don't panic! Working on these engines is a little complex at first, but it is far from impossible to do. Just go slow and make sure you don't do anything without test fittings, dry runs, etc. and you should be successful.
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brentsmith
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 am
- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
Thanks for the usual good advice and encouragement!
When I said "project car," I meant "kit car." Apparently it was either a new or rebuilt engine that has been sitting for all that time with no oil or anything. We'll have to see what we're up against when we get into it. It very well may be that we simply end up replacing all the seals and gaskets in it without even bothering with a "rebuild." We'll have to see what everything is like with careful inspections of everything. There's a shop in the nearest town that specializes in Beetles. As for the money being spent, I really haven't put much into this car yet. Probably about $2,500.00 or less including the actual purchase of the vehicle.
I had just bought Bentley's book on Amazon hours before your post. Don't really care much for Muir's book, to be honest. I've gotten more help to this point from the Hayne's. That's not a common statement, but to each his own, I guess.
I won't be able to see what's up with either engine until the oil pump puller comes in, so I'm going to just cool my heels for a few days. Have to wait for the new pushrod tubes, too.
When I said "project car," I meant "kit car." Apparently it was either a new or rebuilt engine that has been sitting for all that time with no oil or anything. We'll have to see what we're up against when we get into it. It very well may be that we simply end up replacing all the seals and gaskets in it without even bothering with a "rebuild." We'll have to see what everything is like with careful inspections of everything. There's a shop in the nearest town that specializes in Beetles. As for the money being spent, I really haven't put much into this car yet. Probably about $2,500.00 or less including the actual purchase of the vehicle.
I had just bought Bentley's book on Amazon hours before your post. Don't really care much for Muir's book, to be honest. I've gotten more help to this point from the Hayne's. That's not a common statement, but to each his own, I guess.
I won't be able to see what's up with either engine until the oil pump puller comes in, so I'm going to just cool my heels for a few days. Have to wait for the new pushrod tubes, too.
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Blue Baron
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If you can get it to turn by hand, why take it apart without trying to run it? Check the valves, fill it with oil and try to start it. It may be fine just the way it sits.brentsmith wrote:Apparently it was either a new or rebuilt engine that has been sitting for all that time with no oil or anything. We'll have to see what we're up against when we get into it.
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brentsmith
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- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 am
- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
FINALLY got the engine into my shop. It won't turn by hand. I've been taking things off so I can get it split, and cylinders 1 and 4 will come a little loose but not off. If I can just get them to come off, I don't necessarily need to use them, as I have 4 viable pistons and 4 viable cylinders. Any advice on getting them off the engine would be appreciated.
Also, the oil pump is so rusted it's just sad! I've sprayed wd-40 in there, but the gears just won't come out. I've got a good pump from the other engine (like I said, I'm getting the best parts from each engine), but I've got to get the pump out of this "new" engine to even split the case.
When I pulled the bottom and screen from the oil pan, the most disgusting gunk I've seen this side of oatmeal came out. I guess the oil broke down over the years? Anyway, there's some cleaning to do! Wanting to see what's going on inside, but can't split the case.
Also, the oil pump is so rusted it's just sad! I've sprayed wd-40 in there, but the gears just won't come out. I've got a good pump from the other engine (like I said, I'm getting the best parts from each engine), but I've got to get the pump out of this "new" engine to even split the case.
When I pulled the bottom and screen from the oil pan, the most disgusting gunk I've seen this side of oatmeal came out. I guess the oil broke down over the years? Anyway, there's some cleaning to do! Wanting to see what's going on inside, but can't split the case.
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fatalifeaten
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Was there rust in the jugs on 1 and 4 when you pulled the heads? I've found that an overnight soak with PB blaster (which most parts stores and Wal-mart carry) and some gentle tapping with a rubber mallet will usually get them to budge. Same deal with the oil pump gears. My big concern for you though is that if the oil pump's that rusted, so are the crank and cam.
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brentsmith
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- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
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brentsmith
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- Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:24 am
- Location: Jeffrey City, WY
Well, the good news is that I have seen some movement on the flywheel of the engine that sat so long.
The bad news is that there are still two jugs stuck on pistons (1 and 4). Right now, the engine is sitting on cinder blocks so that the jug is facing upward forming a cup with the piston as the bottom of the cup. The first thing I tried was a mixture of Mystery Oil and brake fluid, which did nothing. Of course, there was the whole PB Blaster thing, too, which also didn't really budge it. I read online that it's possible to take a blue torch to the jug and make it expand and break the rust free. I don't have a torch, but did use my heat gun on it. I finally filled the "cup" with diesel fuel and heated the jug at the same time, hoping to see the diesel go down between the jug and the piston when the jug expanded. That didn't happen, but, about 20 minutes after I turned off the heat gun, I noticed that there was very little diesel in the cup. I got my rubber mallet and gave it several firm whacks on the piston, and around the jug. I filled it with diesel again and it didn't take very long to pass through. When I tried to get it off the same way that I got the others off, though, it was still stuck. I ultimately filled the cup about halfway full of PB Blaster and left for the night.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I also still need to get the gears out of the oil pump so I can pull the pump. I sprayed PB Blaster into the pump and let it sit overnight, but those gears are STUBBORN!!!
Anyway, I took some time and finally got the bell housing seal out (which was really easy) and then got the engine compartment seal out (which was not). The replacement engine compartment seal appears to be exactly what I need, but the replacement bell housing seal doesn't have the two flaps like the engine compartment seal does, and the part that is held in by the metal groove on the car on the bell housing seal is wider than both that on the engine compartment seal and the groove itself. Is this the way it is supposed to be, or did they send the wrong seal? Since the bell housing seal needs to go on first, I need to get it on. Would any harm come from widening that groove, installing the seal, and then tapping it back down with the mallet? If not, what would I use to widen the groove.
I know this is a long post, and I apologize. I've not had the chance to get on here in a while.
The bad news is that there are still two jugs stuck on pistons (1 and 4). Right now, the engine is sitting on cinder blocks so that the jug is facing upward forming a cup with the piston as the bottom of the cup. The first thing I tried was a mixture of Mystery Oil and brake fluid, which did nothing. Of course, there was the whole PB Blaster thing, too, which also didn't really budge it. I read online that it's possible to take a blue torch to the jug and make it expand and break the rust free. I don't have a torch, but did use my heat gun on it. I finally filled the "cup" with diesel fuel and heated the jug at the same time, hoping to see the diesel go down between the jug and the piston when the jug expanded. That didn't happen, but, about 20 minutes after I turned off the heat gun, I noticed that there was very little diesel in the cup. I got my rubber mallet and gave it several firm whacks on the piston, and around the jug. I filled it with diesel again and it didn't take very long to pass through. When I tried to get it off the same way that I got the others off, though, it was still stuck. I ultimately filled the cup about halfway full of PB Blaster and left for the night.
Any suggestions would be appreciated. I also still need to get the gears out of the oil pump so I can pull the pump. I sprayed PB Blaster into the pump and let it sit overnight, but those gears are STUBBORN!!!
Anyway, I took some time and finally got the bell housing seal out (which was really easy) and then got the engine compartment seal out (which was not). The replacement engine compartment seal appears to be exactly what I need, but the replacement bell housing seal doesn't have the two flaps like the engine compartment seal does, and the part that is held in by the metal groove on the car on the bell housing seal is wider than both that on the engine compartment seal and the groove itself. Is this the way it is supposed to be, or did they send the wrong seal? Since the bell housing seal needs to go on first, I need to get it on. Would any harm come from widening that groove, installing the seal, and then tapping it back down with the mallet? If not, what would I use to widen the groove.
I know this is a long post, and I apologize. I've not had the chance to get on here in a while.
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brentsmith
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fatalifeaten
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brentsmith
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fatalifeaten
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brentsmith
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Well, not yet. I am going to try the same method as on the oil pump (removing the studs). I was unsuccessful at double nutting the studs, as turning the bottom nut just backed out both of the nuts. I got some lock washers to help hold the second nut down on each stud. I'm going to see if removing the studs holding the jugs on will allow me to twist a little and break those free.
I've been out of town, so I haven't been able to work on it.
Thanks for asking!
I've been out of town, so I haven't been able to work on it.
Thanks for asking!